Adding fold marks to flat pieces

[Diane King]

Is there a way in Indesign CS3 to indicate a fold so that when you export with crops and bleeds, there is a registration mark indicating a fold? I frequently do two-sided flyers with off-center folds. I can't do them as page spreads because the pages would be different sizes, but since I upload press-ready PDFs to my printer, it would be nice to have registration marks indicating where the fold should be on each side. Any ideas?

[unknown]

Draw them by hand.

Bob

[S***@adobeforums.com]

This is a job for a larger bleed or two slug areas.

Any marks that are in the bleed or slug areas will print when the bleeds and slug are selected when making the PDF.

A trick we used to do from my old XP days, was to draw the rule right across the live document area but then cover that area with a paper knockout.

That way the rule would definitely be correct on both sides of the page, but not be visible.

[Daniel Tomasch]

Often, I'll create a new layer named "Trim" or "Fold" and indicate with a Magenta dashed line or something of the sort — the fold or die-cut line. Sometimes I mark "die-line — do not print" just to be safe.

You can send a low-res pdf along with your high-res to the printer with this layer turned on to indicate the folds to them.

[R***@adobeforums.com]

What Dan says. I always layout a trifold on a larger sheet so I can show fold marks.

[S***@adobeforums.com]

Richard,

You don't have to layout a trifold on a larger sheet. There are many ways to avoid that confusion.

[R***@adobeforums.com]

The final file I remit for press is to size but I often send a 2nd PDF with the fold marks on it. Depends on the client. I have a digital printer and send to printer and correct at the rip until it folds just right.

[S***@adobeforums.com]

Richard,

You are working too hard and not efficiently.

You can keep the original ID file at the trim size and add fold marks without oversizing the document.

It feels like you are using 1970's mechanical workflows to do what could be done using modern electronic layouts.

And while I know your heart is in the right place, I worry about newcomers coming to this board and taking your suggestions as efficient ways to work.

You are so clever with certain things and so strange with others.

[Scott Falkner]

Totally. There is no reason not to make your document size the trim size. (Unless you're using Illustrator, and Gods help you.)

[L***@adobeforums.com]

I would agree it's best to keep the document at trim size for a trifold brochure if it's an accordian fold, (or a 4 or 5 page for that matter). But for a barrel fold, one or more pages needs to be narrower than the cover, or it won't fold properly. This is an issue where an element must be exactly centered in one of the short pages, in this case, I would agree with Richard, unless I'm missing something.

[R***@adobeforums.com]

I'm not making myself clear which is my own fault. Late night brain fog. I oversimplified my answer.

When I design a brochure for a client I create an 11 x 8.5 document and do my thing. I create a layer with fold marks so client can see them on proofs. At press, I turn them off. I then send the job to the printer with just crops. I use the same handful of printers so they know my files are extremely consistent. Once in a while they will ask for a PDF with fold marks if an image or text appears too close to a fold.

For others, I dupe the file expand to 11 x 17. Put in my marks, fold marks, slug and any other pertinent information. Depends on the client. The vast majority of the time this is required by outside ad agencies who hire us for design work.

Sandee - your comment is about 70s workflow is odd. Almost without exception, any file I receive from an ad agency for printing is laid out on an oversize sheet. Drives me insane to get 7 business cards in 7 8.5 x 11 AI files. I may be exaggerating a bit but I would go as far as to say AI files outnumber ID files 10 to 1. Letterheads and envelopes in two separate 11 x 17 AI files. Additionally, as mentioned above, when I design for the agency they specify the files be AI with crops, slug, etc.

The only thing I ever use AI for is logos and vector art. The thing that made me switch to ID was that I didn't have to exit as often to use AI and PS as I did with Quark. Being a one man shop, the efficiency gains alone justified the switch.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Richard, that seems to be backwards. Normally my clients don't want to see [and are totally ignorant of the purpose] of fold marks. So PDF proofs are sent to them with no bleeds, no crops, no folds, etc. And the final print PDF will have bleeds, crops and folds.

[S***@adobeforums.com]

Maybe I'm missing something, but in none of these cases does the artboard need to be oversized.

Use of a large bleed or slug will create a printable area for fold marks.

[L***@adobeforums.com]

Sandy, when you said "You can keep the original ID file at the trim size" I read that to mean the final size of the folded brochure, which would be fine in some cases, and not in others.

[S***@adobeforums.com]

OK, this is how I would handle any folded project:

First, I look at the PAGE as the trim for the piece of paper which will be folded to become the brochure. (We may think of the folded areas as pages, but I don't think of them that way.)

There are always two pages to a folder project: The front and the back pages.

I would set up my two pages as the final trim size.

Then, I would specify a bleed for the document.

I would probably use the master page to designate the fold marks (as guides) as well as safety areas for type.

I might use text frames on the master page if I needed text to flow from one folded area to another. It depends on the purpose of the brochure and the text layout.

Finally, if I needed to indicate where the folds were for the client I would specify to print guides in the PDF. Although if I had a particularly brain-dead client (I know, redundancy), I might draw dotted fold lines down the master page to indicate where these folds would be.

But that would not be what I would send to the print service provider. For them I would use the bleed and/or slug area to indicate where the folds should be.

Because the page is the size of the trim, these fold marks can float anywhere the proper placement should be. (I would have gotten the fold mark placement AHEAD of time from the print service provider. I would NEVER try to anticipate where those folds should fall by myself. I know better!)

I feel this workflow is the proper technique for a designer or production person and winds up with a document that is most adaptable for the needs of the print service provider.

[F vd Geest (aka. Wa veghel)]

I'm with Sandee, it is the way I work (and worked for a long time). Use bleed and if needed slug.

[L***@adobeforums.com]

I would agree, except there are plenty of one sided pocket folders, and we call it "flat size" until folded and/or trimmed. I don't see the advantage of using the master page to indicate the folds, as they will not be the same for the front and back on a trifold, except as I mentioned previously.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

I think Richard [in one of his earlier post] is referring to "Large" as one document page that is constructed to flat size as opposed to multiple facing pages [as a spread] where the page represents a panel of a multi-fold piece. And "Large" is not oversized to flat size to accomodate fold marks.

[R***@adobeforums.com]

Although if I had a particularly brain-dead client




Sandee: You obviously haven't dealt with off the street clients in your life. My clients range from the local deli to large corporations to ad agencies. There is an incredibly wide range of competency at the lower end. If I had a dollar for every time a client said (with great condescension and sarcasm) "am I supposed to guess how this folds" I would be retired by now. When you get down to local level: PTA's, schools, garden clubs, etc. you need to be very literal.

And if you've received the 100s of publisher files with text and/or images that runs to and often across the folds, you wouldn't have made such an uninformed remark about fold marks.

If it makes you guys feel better, all the jobs we design in-house for end users go to the printers with just crops. Though sometimes I add fold marks (in the bleed area, no less!). As I mentioned earlier, most of my vendors have been working with us for 10+ years and we have it down pat.

At the end of the day, different jobs have different requirements.

I've tried slugs and never liked it. Just my preference. I've used custom slugs for 20 years and am at the stage where certain habits are too deeply entrenched to break.

[S***@adobeforums.com]

Sandee: You obviously haven't dealt with off the street clients in your
life. My clients range from the local deli to large corporations to ad
agencies. There is an incredibly wide range of competency at the lower
end.




Richard,

I don't "deal" with those clients. I'm the one trying to "teach" them how to do it properly. I don't call them clients. I call them students.

This is where I have problems with print shops that insist on doing it in somewhat non-standard ways.

My students come in with stories of how their print shops have told them to jump through amazing hoops trying to accomodate the print shops antiquated workflows.

It's hard enough teaching smart students. But when I get stupid ones who have been told to do all sorts of bizarre things, it's just impossible to teach 'em.

[rob day]

Diane, try this fold mark script—I use it all the time:

<http://www.zenodesign.com/scripts/MakeFoldMarks.zip>

Dialog asks you where you want the marks (in inches) and if they should be on the vertical or horizontal measure, and then draws them .125" off the page edge. The marks are put on their own layer. When you export set a .25" + bleed to include them in the PDF.

[R***@adobeforums.com]

This is where I have problems with print shops that insist on doing it
in somewhat non-standard ways.




As a general rule, I tell my clients who don't know design (the publisher people) to give me the live file and all art/fonts. Professionals, I request a PDF. Surprising how many extremely talented, experienced designers send jobs without bleeds or crops.

will send you a copy in May when it is published so you can tell all those
deli owners to read it!




Thanks. I'm a design book junkie. My current fave is still Scott Citron's book. I'm awaiting Michael Murphy's book which is due out in a few months from what I've read on his site.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Quoted from Sandee in this thread

I'm the one trying to "teach" them how to do it properly.




And here is Sandee's advice to Chris in the Yellow Page Ad thread, that he may have to use Illustrator and convert fonts to outlines, which many may consider a non standard method of supplying a file...

However, I don't doubt that they have very archaic workflows. It's a field
filled with very old automation workflows.




And as much as I don't like the idea, you may have to follow their advice.

So what's it going to be... Teach these students the proper standard way. Or possibly... in this crazy business we call print and graphic arts, that there may never be a standard way, that communication may be the most valuable tool that you learn...

[S***@adobeforums.com]

Quoted from Sandee in this thread




Jeffrey,

I've had a really bad morning and don't wish to get into this debate with you.

Whatever you want to believe of me is correct.

[J***@adobeforums.com]

Whatever you want to believe of me is correct.




Sandee, this comment makes me believe you think my post was intended as a personal attack or criticizing your teaching ability, which it was not intended that way. However this excerpt from your previous post...

My students come in with stories of how their print shops have told them
to jump through amazing hoops trying to accomodate the print shops antiquated
workflows.




...implies [or at least my intrepretation] that the printer is mostly at fault for allowing bad practices in today's printing world. And in a lot of cases, that is completely true. But the reality for any student entering this field, you may have to make integrity compromises to eventually and successfully complete a print project.

[R***@adobeforums.com]

you may have to make integrity compromises to eventually and successfully
complete a print project.




you may have to make integrity compromises a lot to eventually and successfully complete a print project.

Fixed it for you.

Obviously one should keep to a standard for workflow consistency. But the weirdest damn files will come your way for sure.

Sandee: no one's attacking you. And as well as you teach, a rookie will always be a rookie when entering a working environment.

[peterpica]

I think tradition has dashed (hyphened?) lines as perfs, not folds. Folds used to be indicated in a nonprinting marginal area as solid lines on paper mechanicals. In any event, I use spot colors to indicate these so printer knows not to output when printing cymk files when customer wants to see folds in a critical image or text area. Also, you can add non-printing data outside trim size & bleeds but in a slug area. No need to fool around with changing document sizes.

The InD plugin "Cropster" does this fairly well, but is somewhat pricey for this type of stuff that you can build your own templates.

[David Creamer]

Using the Slug area for fold lines works fine. What problems have there been with that option (other than remembering to export with bleed and slug areas on)?